Joe Biden tells us that he is personally opposed to abortion -- that he accepts "on faith" that human life begins at conception -- and yet because we live in a "heterogenious society" the best compromise between everyone's views is to accept Roe v. Wade.
This appeals to many of our instincts as Americans and members of a democratic society. We all recognize that it is often necessary, in a diverse and democratic society, to compromise and allow other people to live as they believe is best. And so there is a surface-level reasonableness to someone saying, "I believe this, but because we need to respect everyone's beliefs, I understand that I can't hold everyone else to that belief."
However, there some some issues that we all recognize are not open to compromise, even if not everyone shares our beliefs. We abolished slavery, and a hundred years later abolished segregation, despite the fact that many people in the country wanted to keep these evils. We have made spousal abuse a crime, despite that fact that some cultures believe it is entirely permissable for a man to beat his wife.
What those issues have in common is that they cause grevious harm to innocent human beings whom it is the duty of the state to protect through the workings of civil law and justice. If one believes, as Senator Biden claims to, that an unborn child represents innocent human life then to insist that it's necessary to "compromise" on the protection of that life is completely without moral integrity.
If Biden and Obama were willing to assert that they definitely did not believe that embryos and fetuses are human beings, they would at least have a consistent moral position. But as it stands, their position is nonsensical, and morally repulsive.
Friday, August 29, 2008
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I'm personally opposed to wife-beating, but in a heterogenous society, we must allow other people to do so.
I'm personally opposed to child sex abuse, but in a het..., we must
I'm per... oppo... to female genital mutilation, but in a ...
I'm pers... oppo... to forced child marriages, but in a ...
I'm pers... oppo... to knifing others, but in a ...
How about coming up with a list of such arguments(I'm personally opposed to wearing coats and ties, but in a diverse and democratic society, I'd compromise and allow other people to wear what they believe is best) and gradually raising the tempo to the ridiculousness of these surface-level reasonablenesses (I'm personally opposed to flying planes into towers, but in a democratic society ....)!
Sarah Palin is going to kick the snot out of this pretentious poseur!
Watch Cardinal Arinze demolish the "Personally Opposed" canard here.
I am in agreement with this post. I often hear the word 'compromise' being used as a justification for turning our back on horrific things that happen, like abortion.
'Compromise' requires both sides giving in a little at a time to reach a common ground, a medium. On serious issues like abortion, it's impossible for anything positive to come from it. It's quite simply a one-way street where terminating life is forced into becoming 'Acceptable' and tolerated by those who oppose it. What is gained in the compromise by those who oppose - the methods of brutality are lessened? That's certainly no consolation.
Ending Life is not acceptable (not at the beginning nor at the end). We are however called to respect everyone. Respect could help assist and support pregnant women who are in troubled situations who do not want to be pregnant. Respect could help assist families in the tremendous costs associated with adoption. Respect could help bridge so many gaps in our society that often lead to circumstances where abortion is seen as the only answer. 'Respect everyone' is a very different thing than 'compromise' on what you believe is fundamentally wrong on every level. If Joe Biden believes that life begins at conception, then he must understand how wrong it is down to his core. Perhaps with lots of prayer, the leader within him would come out and lead us in the direction of developing a society of respect and support - eliminate the cause/need for such violence against the youngest members of the human race. I'm not holding my breath for that to happen. I'm thrilled with the prospects of Sarah Palin as VP! :D
Hey, Directors:
Are you going to start selling Catholics Against Joe Biden bumper stickers or bumper magnets?
I would contact one of the Directors personally, but none of them have provided a contact email.
Please reply at:
esg08@fsu.edu
how can you remain dedicated to the diverse, democratic values you admittedly support, yet maintain an authoritarian stance which legislates religious-based beliefs upon others?
how many innocent babies die everyday in wars sanctioned by our government? isn't a bit hypocritical to attack politicians over abortion issues, but overlook their support of outright warfare?
do the 10 commandments only apply to democrats?
"how can you remain dedicated to the diverse, democratic values you admittedly support, yet maintain an authoritarian stance which legislates religious-based beliefs upon others?"
Perhaps you might take that question up with the fellow who wrote this:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Or perhaps the fellow who wrote this:
"If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.""
Or perhaps this gentleman who gave a speech of some note forty-five years ago:
"I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together."
Catholics against Joe Biden are all complete idiots
do us a favor and vote out the other Democratic Catholics as well... that should reduce the number of Catholics in congress to 43 in the house, and 9 in the senate so 52 instead of 132
the Republican Catholics may get thousands killed with wars, capital punishment and poverty, but, by damn, they'll be "Pro-Life"
instead vote for a creationist
when the pope already said and I quote "This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such."
as well as pro big oil and pro big coal: again I quote the pope:
“We cannot simply do what we want with this Earth of ours, with what has been entrusted to us”
So you're saying Biden is a bad guy because he won't force Catholic beliefs on the rest of the United States. That he leaves non-catholics to make their own decision about what is right and wrong? When did the Catholic church become a strong arm organization? When did the Catholic church take the Muslim-like extreme of "Join us or die"
hypocrites, the whole bunch of you!
Do you want to listen to the pundits or the pope?
you all make me sick
"Do you want to listen to the pundits or the pope?"
The Pope actually anonymous Obama troll. For your consideration:
"1. Presenting oneself to receive Holy Communion should be a conscious decision, based on a reasoned judgement regarding one’s worthiness to do so, according to the Church’s objective criteria, asking such questions as: “Am I in full communion with the Catholic Church? Am I guilty of grave sin? Have I incurred a penalty (e.g. excommunication, interdict) that forbids me to receive Holy Communion? Have I prepared myself by fasting for at least an hour?” The practice of indiscriminately presenting oneself to receive Holy Communion, merely as a consequence of being present at Mass, is an abuse that must be corrected (cf. Instruction “Redemptionis Sacramentum,” nos. 81, 83).
2. The Church teaches that abortion or euthanasia is a grave sin. The Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae, with reference to judicial decisions or civil laws that authorise or promote abortion or euthanasia, states that there is a “grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection. [...] In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to ‘take part in a propaganda campaign in favour of such a law or vote for it’” (no. 73). Christians have a “grave obligation of conscience not to cooperate formally in practices which, even if permitted by civil legislation, are contrary to God’s law. Indeed, from the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. [...] This cooperation can never be justified either by invoking respect for the freedom of others or by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it” (no. 74).
3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
4. Apart from an individuals’s judgement about his worthiness to present himself to receive the Holy Eucharist, the minister of Holy Communion may find himself in the situation where he must refuse to distribute Holy Communion to someone, such as in cases of a declared excommunication, a declared interdict, or an obstinate persistence in manifest grave sin (cf. can. 915).
5. Regarding the grave sin of abortion or euthanasia, when a person’s formal cooperation becomes manifest (understood, in the case of a Catholic politician, as his consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws), his Pastor should meet with him, instructing him about the Church’s teaching, informing him that he is not to present himself for Holy Communion until he brings to an end the objective situation of sin, and warning him that he will otherwise be denied the Eucharist.
6. When “these precautionary measures have not had their effect or in which they were not possible,” and the person in question, with obstinate persistence, still presents himself to receive the Holy Eucharist, “the minister of Holy Communion must refuse to distribute it” (cf. Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts Declaration “Holy Communion and Divorced, Civilly Remarried Catholics” [2002], nos. 3-4). This decision, properly speaking, is not a sanction or a penalty. Nor is the minister of Holy Communion passing judgement on the person’s subjective guilt, but rather is reacting to the person’s public unworthiness to receive Holy Communion due to an objective situation of sin.
[N.B. A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.]"
yes, like I said...vote the other 80 catholics out of congress because they are also pro-choice
nevermind that the Rep want a war with Iran and to renew the cold war with Russia
nevermind that they sanction the state taking of human life, and how unfair it actually is in application
nevermind that they deny healthcare to the poor, and want to continue to destroy the environment...
those are all ok.. it's somehow a lesser evil to let all that happen
like I said, you people make me sick
wow, you people need to get a grip and take care of the people that are actually here, instead of worrying so much about the ones that aren't
"wow, you people need to get a grip and take care of the people that are actually here, instead of worrying so much about the ones that aren't"
Children in utero anonymous Obama troll are here just as much as you and me. Unlike you and me they can be legally killed thanks to candidates you support with your votes.
as opposed to the people that are out of the womb that you kill with yours?
honestly, you really expect a non catholic to be representatvie of catholic values... you really are a fool
"honestly, you really expect a non catholic to be representatvie of catholic values... you really are a fool"
Anonymous Obama troll, we expect Catholics, and Joe Biden purports to be a Catholic, to reflect Catholic values. As for you, I expect only ignorance and bile, the usual products of an internet troll.
Anonymous Obama troll:
You forget that Catholic moral theology is rooted in the natural law, and so its truths are, with very few exceptions, knowable to the intuitions and the reasons of non-Catholics.
You also fail to distinguish between intrinsic evils and prudential policy considerations.
BEHOLD A PALE HORSE…..
I have to admit -and I am a devout Catholic- that for years I sat on the fence and said -forgive me- that I simultaneously Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. It was my way of saying personally opposed. I have always thought abortion to be morally questionable but I appeased the Pro-Choice (pro-abortion) Sangerite Left perhaps for my own safety and sanity. But gradually I have come to see abortion on demand in a different light. When I saw the film BELLA I could not stop from weeping. Also I have relatives who have had abortions and so I have NO NIECES OR NEPHEWS (We have, thank God three lovely children all pro-life)
Sometimes I have nightmares about these lost souls -nieces and nephews who would be in their 20's or 30's now. It is a terrible void in my life that I fill with being a teacher and a catechist and of course as a father. I hope to be a granfather before my 60th birthday (I am 52).
But I have gone to Mass for years, and read FIRST THINGS and prayed and thought and prayed and thought.
But finally I cam to the realization that I COULD NOT BE STRONGLY PROLIFE FOR MYSELF and my family alone -I was being called to pray and to help save innocents who are being slaughtered.
So now I consider myself strongly pro-life. I now conisder HUMANAE VITAE to have been Cassandra like. I am ashamed that it took me so long to understand that yes abortion was part and parcel of a culture of death which I as a Catholic must oppose as if it were the Nazi Holocaust or chattel slavery.
I am not kidding when I say McCain's pick of Palin is the greatest thing that has happened since Gov Roosevelt TR was appointed VP. By God’s grace and wisdom he has now set her on the course to the presidency. There is now doubt about that. That challenges will be great. Enemies will be at the gate. She may have to lay down her life for her country. Her son , serving in Iraq will be the target of assassins and killers. May God save him from all harm and ill and may he come home safe and sound with victory upon his spears.
But facing firmly to the future , trusting in God, Sarah knows that here on earth God’s work is truly our own. There is a wicked spirit, hovering round us still and I see –with tears in my eyes- but darkly the trials and tribulations she is going to face.
But like here there are many more in the heartland of America and if we need to raise a thousand Gideons and 999 the unity of these United States our Great Republic and citadel of world freedom, will not fail.
Truth, and justice and freedom and mercy for the millions of innocents snuffed out by fanatics and abortion profiteers will not fail.
The Almighty has His own purposes: “woe unto the world because of offences! For it must needs be that offences come, but WOE TO THE MAN BY WHOM OFFENCE COMETH.” {Lincoln; 2nd Inaugural and the Old Book of course}
If may be that every drop of blood spilled by heartless women and greedy profiteer abortionists will be paid a million times more to add to the 40,000,000 already cruelly snuffed out in the silence of clear white rooms not unlike the clean tiled gas chambers of the Nazi murder machine.
As it was said on the Old Book over three thousand years ago “the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether.” The orgy of licentiousness and killing must stop or it will kill America –it’s called the Roe effect- as surely as if we had fireing squads massacring elementary school students ON A DAILY BASIS NATION WIDE. The toll has already surpassed –SURPASSED the blood letting of the Great War and is on track to surpass the number of killed in the entire 2nd World War. This is not something small. This is not something insignificant. This is a spilling of blood and innocent lives on a monstrous scale made more sinister by its proponents comparing the right to choose to our most sacred civil rights. There is nothing sacred –NOTHING- about killing called lawful or not. It is a cause for shame. It is a cause for weeping. It is –or should be a cause for alarm. What kind of society have we become?
Such a society deserves to collapse and be wiped off the face of the earth.
Bin Laden is a grisly fascist beast but he knows ONE BIG THING: God is great and those who run their lives in complete disregard for His fundamental laws of love and mercy will not be spared in the end.
The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse hover near just as I write, DISEASE, WAR, FAMINE and GREEN DEATH……O ye of little faith…..who think of nothing but eating drinking and making merry…
If we do not change our ways SOCIALLY and ECONOMICALLY and educationally and morally the American people will face a terrible day of reckoning.
“LET US HOPE AND PRAY....MAC AND PALIN all the way!”
RICARDO MUNRO
THE FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE..in case you don’t know your Bible….
ίππος λευκός (híppos leukós), [The] White Horse PESTILENCE and DISEASE
ίππος πυρρός (híppos purrós), [The] Fiery Red Horse WAR and its destruction and waste
ίππος μέλας (híppos mélas), [The] Black Horse FAMINE DROUGHT AND MASS STARVATION
ίππος χλωρός, θάνατος (híppos khlōrós, thánatos), [The] Pale Green Horse, [named] DEATH…
…I will never forget what my Auld Pop heard from the Bible scholar holding a rifle next to him at 2nd Ypres ( April 24, 1915) as witness to the demonic first German gas attack…
”HIPPOS KHLOROS THANATOS…HE SAID.”The Pale Green horse”…then a medical student from Glasgow University said “IT’S GAS, LADS, CHLORIINE GAS –it will burn out our eyes and lungs with HYDROCHORIC ACID! PISS IN YOUR HANKERCHIEFS MEN! Cover your mouths and keep your eyes closed and PRAY TO GOD…. The Highlanders all said “DIA (Gee-ah), have mercy on us! ”
Word went down the line quickly and the men did as they were told and held the line to the total surprise of the Germans lumbering forward in their protective gear.
Yes, all this stirs a remembrance of "the thin red line" of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders' unlikely routing of the Russian Cavalry at Balaklava and of the German strormtroopers in the Ypres Salient.
Aye, a Thin Red Line of heroes they were, men of strength, courage, loyalty and faith TO THE DEATH. I doubt if there are many if any Obama supporters who would follow HIM to the DEATH for any cause.
It must be remembered that such victories are achieved not only by extraordinary courage, but absolute trust in their leaders.
Old Mac and Young Palin are worthy of the absolute trust of the American people.
I, for one, would follow them the gates of hell and yes I would drain my very veins for them because they represent real hope and real change and FREEDOM for my children and my children’s children and the countless millions of innocent children yet unborn. That’s a cause worthy to follow and yes, worthy to die for.
________________________________________
Rather intense comment, Mr. Munro.
Mike and Obama Troll (sorry, you didn't leave a name so that will have to suffice) -
The counters to your arguments are presented in some of these posts if you decide to read through and not ignore them. However, let me just add...
"how many innocent babies die everyday in wars sanctioned by our government? isn't a bit hypocritical to attack politicians over abortion issues, but overlook their support of outright warfare?"
Such deaths are, of course, tragic, unfortunate, and undesired. You seem to be implying that we don't care about these deaths, which isn't true. How many civilians have died thus far in Iraq? According to http://www.iraqbodycount.org/,
upwards of 95,000. Acceptable? No. But that is over the period of, what, four years? How many abortions are performed in America each year? Over 1,000,000 PER YEAR.
Hmmm...now I'm a Catholic, so it may surprise you that I can employ logic, but it seems to me that even without considering intent or circumstances, 1,000,000 innocents killed in one year is slightly more gravid than 95,000 killed over four years. What makes it especially horrid is that civilian deaths in Iraq are accidents or the result of fighting between factions. In America, we are killing our own voluntarily.
If you could not simultaneously prevent both tragedies, you're telling me that you would not choose to prevent over 1,000,000 deaths per year?
Obviously you disagree with us, but instead of trolling you may want to remind yourself that WE consider abortion to be murder, and you're not going to change anyone's mind here.
Furthermore, Biden and Pelosi have said that they do not know when life begins. In that case, in their mind, they are allowing for the killing of a possibly live human being, which is criminal negligence at least.
"how can you remain dedicated to the diverse, democratic values you admittedly support, yet maintain an authoritarian stance which legislates religious-based beliefs upon others?"
It is a religion belief that killing is wrong - does that mean we should not legislate against murder? You seem to be caught up in the flow of secularism permeating the nation that dictates that religion has no place anywhere except in the private life. You don't seem to realize that religious beliefs contribute to personal values, and that commonly held personal values lead to societal laws and guidelines.
-Paul
so you're saying it's your duty and the governments to force your belief on others who don't share them?
so do me a favor, rather then penalizing the ones who take their oath to represent the people to task, why don't you just keep all catholics out of political office... or better yet, why don't you petition the pope to excommunicate all 80 of the serving democratic catholics in congress... problem solved
just don't complain when any other catholic issues get ignored in Washington.
so which way do you want it?
it's single issue thinking like this that kept Kerry out of office, and kept the Bushco War and Murder machine rolling right along... but hey you saved a million zygotes a year...
wait... no you didn't
I'm know I'm not going to change any of your minds... you're too wrapped up in the packaging to bother looking at the product. Cling to your one issue like fools.
I hope you get what you ask for, and then I hope you live long enough to regret it... just like the last 4 years
You keep ignoring the fact that we believe life begins at conception. If we, believing that, said "All right, abortion is okay anyway" what kind of horrible human beings would we be?
"so you're saying it's your duty and the governments to force your belief on others who don't share them?"
You also keep twisting the issue and asserting this idea that we're forcing our beliefs on you. Not so. For example: If you don't think it's wrong to kill another human being, fine. I don't care. But if you do kill someone, you will be put in prison. That's not me forcing my beliefs on you - that's society protecting itself through law. And YOU seem perfectly willing to try to force your beliefs on me.
You talk about the Bushco Murder machine, yet you show such a disregard for life, implying that 1,000,000 lives a year is insignificant compared to -- what, exactly? Having Obama in office?
"just don't complain when any other catholic issues get ignored in Washington."
What exactly is a Catholic issue? Is a concern for life exclusive to Catholics?
"I'm know I'm not going to change any of your minds... you're too wrapped up in the packaging to bother looking at the product."
What does that even mean? Yes, we are sure enough of ourselves and our values to know that murder is wrong. If Hitler was up for election in Nazi Germany and the nation knew of his plans to exterminate as many Jews as possible, I wonder if anyone would have debated with your often (and disdainfully) touted "one issue" garbage. If an issue is this grave, then yes, it trumps all others.
"I hope you get what you ask for, and then I hope you live long enough to regret it... just like the last 4 years"
Thanks. I also hope we get what we're asking for and then live long enough to see what happens. As far as the "just like the last 4 years" remark, try coming up with something more original. The only people spouting that "McBush" and "McSame" crap are sycophantic partisan Dems who don't know what else to say about McCain.
Thanks for trying.
-Paul
I'm personally opposed to calling Joe Biden a bloviatingly mendacious, whited sepulcher cognitively incapable of understanding Biology 101 on the nature of an embryo...but in a heterogeneous society...I suppose somebody might say such things about this Joe "Pillar of the Church" Biden......Did he study Theology under Nancy Pelosi?
For those who labor under the delusion that being anti-abortion is some religious imposition, see Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League
Cling to your one issue like fools.
Yes. I call this the Auschwitz-pays-its-employees-a-living-wage-and-has-an-extensive-recycling-program argument.
you know, it's funny... you don't want abortions, but then you don't want to prevent unwanted pregnancies or STDs either...
because for some reason, sex that isn't for the purpose of procreation is dirty
a piece of latex properly used, will prevent thousands and thousands of abortions... but you can't support that...
so rather then supporting proper contraception, you just promote abstinence... which by the way, doesn't worked
I call it the "let's turn back the clock 100 years, and make women property" argument
want to prevent abortions... hand out condoms and the knowledge to use them properly, otherwise your argument has no merit
you know, it's funny... you don't want abortions, but then you don't want to prevent unwanted pregnancies or STDs either...
because for some reason, sex that isn't for the purpose of procreation is dirty
I believe you are misinformed. Sex between married people has a two-fold purpose: Procreation and spousal union, which involves pleasure which is perfectly as it should be, but when we put the pleasure above it's purpose, it is like sexual bulemia.
a piece of latex properly used, will prevent thousands and thousands of abortions... but you can't support that...
Of course not. They are both evil. It's like saying car-jacking will prevent thousands and thousands of armed bank-robberies.
so rather then supporting proper contraception, you just promote abstinence... which by the way, doesn't worked
That's funny. I am only aware of one case where a pregnancy resulted from not having intercourse, and in that case there were miraculous circumstances.
I call it the "let's turn back the clock 100 years, and make women property" argument
That would be news to Sarah Palin. She's got several kids and is a governor. I don't think anyone would regard her as property.
want to prevent abortions... hand out condoms and the knowledge to use them properly, otherwise your argument has no merit
We prevent abortions by getting people to understand that children are not the enemy of sex. It's only complicated if you want it to be. Thanks for your input. God bless you.
To reduce abortions: the Catholic Church needs to stop insisting that birth control is sinful. There is no theological or scientific or rational reason that birth control is immoral. Women die in Africa because condoms aren’t promoted as a way of preventing AIDS. Reading over some of the comments, I think many Catholics would actually be happier if they lived under Islamic law. Also, may I add that if Roe versus Wade is overturned, the problem will go to the states and it won’t stop abortion either. The lowest abortion rate in the Western world belongs to Holland. Why? People there believe that it’s wrong so they use birth contol. Sensible people! By the way, I doubt that European Catholic politicans are maligned in the way that Joe Biden is. Why don't Catholics work on prohibiting abortions in Catholic countries? By the way, Palin believes in end times and her pastor believes that refugees from the horrors will run to Alaska. Amazing!
To reduce abortions: the Catholic Church needs to stop insisting that birth control is sinful.
The Church naysayers are contradicting themselves. On the one had they constantly say the Church is irrelevant and nobody listens to them anyway. If that is the case, why should they change their teachings and why should anyone care if they keep them? The Church's job is to proclaim Truth, not try to conform to some dead worldly concept of relevance.
There is no theological or scientific or rational reason that birth control is immoral.
2,000 years of constant Church teaching and our purpose that God created us for would count as the theological reason. Science doesn't rule on the morality of things. The rational basis against it is that it is no more normal than deliberately gorging on food and vomiting it up.
Women die in Africa because condoms aren’t promoted as a way of preventing AIDS.
Actually, the one piece of good news in Africa is in Uganda, where their program emphasizing fidelity is reducing AIDS. Meanwhile, in the countries in which condoms are pushed, the AIDS rate continues to climb unabated.
Reading over some of the comments, I think many Catholics would actually be happier if they lived under Islamic law.
We live happy because Christ is our salvation, whatever worldly power happens to run the show. I also urge everyone to pray for Catholics being persecuted in Islamic countries.
Also, may I add that if Roe versus Wade is overturned, the problem will go to the states and it won’t stop abortion either.
One thing at a time. Also, most pro-lifers work at the state and local level. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.
The lowest abortion rate in the Western world belongs to Holland. Why? People there believe that it’s wrong so they use birth contol. Sensible people!
You can also cure a cold by cutting the person's head off. It doesn't make it right. And last I checked, Holland is in the process of committing demographic suicide. Don't sound sensible to me.
By the way, I doubt that European Catholic politicans are maligned in the way that Joe Biden is.
If something unfair or untrue has been said about Biden here, point it out rather than making these sweeping characterizations.
Why don't Catholics work on prohibiting abortions in Catholic countries?
To borrow a slogan from the progressives--Think Globally, Act Locally.
By the way, Palin believes in end times and her pastor believes that refugees from the horrors will run to Alaska. Amazing!
And this has to do with Biden and his a la carte Catholicism how?
scott said...
To reduce abortions: the Catholic Church needs to stop insisting that birth control is sinful.
MUNRO: I admit that I used to temporaize about this issue myself although I am a Catholic. Of course, since the Griswwold case artificial birth control has been totally legal in the USA. It has enabled more people to be sexual active and have recreational sex.
But has it increased human happiness? I wonder. Fear of STD's especially AIDS and HERPES has cast a shadow over the love lives of young people. Today I see HUMANA VITAE as Cassanra like. I think we need to question if birth control (the dud in the mud mentality) is harmless.
The comments made -to me snide comments and comments tinged with bigotry that Catholics would like to live under a Taliban like society or raise up some new Spanish inquisition --are just nonsense. I am a loyal Catholic but I BELIEVE PASSIONATELY in free choice and in freedom. What I don't believe in is moral anarchy and a libertine lifestyle. But I do believe people need to be invived to make good moral choices. One cannot coerce them. For some sinners the best thing we can do is silently pray. Invective is of no value at all if a person is dead set against faith and self-control.
I agree that the source of our joy is Christ as our teacher and as our friend and our salvation.
Roe v. Wase -which if you know its history was based on lies, fabrications and falsehoos- deserves to be overturned by the will of the people. Pro-Choice people cannot understand the continual outrage of Pro-Life people but suffice it to say for us it is a human rights issue every bit as much as slavery or child labor. Induced abortions may be legal but they will always remain morally questionable and a tragic waste of human potential.
I am quite certain that people who want legal abortions will always find a place to do so. New York is unlikely to ban abortions, nor Canada, nor California, nor Britain nor Spain etc. Indeed abotion is as common as legal prostition maybe more so.
You can also cure a cold by cutting the person's head off. It doesn't make it right. And I last I checked, Holland is in the process of committing demographic suicide.
What Sarah Palin's pastor believes or what the Palins do in the privacy of their home is their business. It is obvious that they believe that marriage means openness to children. It is obvious that they believe in a culture of life. God bless them.
You shall know them by their fruits.
Please point out to me in the New Testament where birth control is discussed? Please point out where birth control was discussed at church councils prior to the 20th century? The church (prior to modern times) didn't even bury fetuses in consecrated ground because they felt they had no souls! (Many church theologians did not believe that life began at conception.) Do you really think abortions will go away if they are outlawed? There'll be a huge underground and women will go to Mexico and Canada The only way to lessen abortions is to educate, educate and educate and to promote birth control. Getting mad at Catholic politicans won't save one life! Birth control will save many!
Please point out to me in the New Testament where birth control is discussed? Please point out where birth control was discussed at church councils prior to the 20th century?
The Biblical Evidence Against Contraception
Contraception: Early Church Teaching
The church (prior to modern times) didn't even bury fetuses in consecrated ground because they felt they had no souls! (Many church theologians did not believe that life began at conception.)
The whole ensoulment issue is a red herring. The evilness of both abortion and contraception do not stand or fall on ensoulment.
Do you really think abortions will go away if they are outlawed?
Do you really think armed robberies will stop if we continue to keep them illegal? Evil acts ought to be illegal. Especially when it involves the killing of innocent humans. Unless you don't think abortion is evil. In which case you need to drop the coy pretence about contraception.
There'll be a huge underground and women will go to Mexico and Canada
Evil acts don't become less evil just because they are done in a clean, well carpeted office.
The only way to lessen abortions is to educate, educate and educate and to promote birth control.
Is abortion always evil? The touting of contraception makes no sense if one thinks abortion is morally neutral.
Getting mad at Catholic politicans won't save one life!
Who says anyone is mad? Biden represents himself as in line with Catholic teaching. This site presents evidence to the contrary.
Birth control will save many!
This is an example of the consequentialism. It is not permissible to do one evil act in order to prevent another. Now I should point out that there is a distinction between contraception and birth control. Regulating births is not immoral per se. Contraception is.
More sources for Biblical and Patristic teachings against contraception:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/Contraception_and_Sterilization.asp
Bottom line: No sense in pretending that Pope Paul VI woke up one morning and decided to condemn contraception on a lark.
Contraception in and of itself is not evil in my book. In fact, I see it as a distinct blessing for mankind. To me all arguments against it are specious and far fetched. Contraception helps to prevent abortions, illnesses and disease as well as giving the gift of empowering women. Pope John the 23rd freed Catholics to think for themselves by stating that one's conscience was the ultimate moral arbiter in a Christian's journey through life. My conscience tells me to reject inane argements against birth control.
Contraception in and of itself is not evil in my book. A In fact, I see it as a distinct blessing for mankind.
Appealing to subjectivism won't pass Catholic muster. Subjectivism/relativism is a self-refuting philosophy and what Benedict 16 referred to as the "dictatorship of relativism".
This what as To me all arguments against it are specious and far fetched.
Easily stated, but certainly hasn't been demonstrated in anything posted here.
Contraception helps to prevent abortions, illnesses and disease as well as giving the gift of empowering women.
Earlier I asked if abortion is evil in and of itself. I asked it again because frankly, the whole credibility of people arguing for contraception rides on it.
Pope John the 23rd freed Catholics to think for themselves by stating that one's conscience was the ultimate moral arbiter in a Christian's journey through life.
This is simply a bald and pernicious error that has unfortunately destroyed many Catholic's ability to properly morally reason. Truth is Truth. Conscience doesn't change Truth. Rather, the conscience works like an alarm. Saying contraception is ok because the conscience says its ok is like sitting in a living room engulfed in flames and saying that because the smoke alarm isn't going off, then there's no fire. Here's a source: A Clarification on the Meaning of 'Conscience'
Imagine all the stuff one can dispose of under the absurd primacy-of-conscience canard. Robbing banks? My conscience says its ok. The doctrine of the Trinity? My conscience says it's rubbish. And so on. This isn't freedom, it's chaos and why bother being Catholic at all?
My conscience tells me to reject inane argements against birth control.
When you find any and actually demonstrate them to be inane, let me know. There is a big matza ball hanging in the air. The unanswered question: Is abortion evil in and of itself?
A writer has never answered the query of contraception being mentioned in the New Testament. Sorry the answer below doesn't do it for me.
"2,000 years of constant Church teaching and our purpose that God created us for would count as the theological reason."
No. 1: Church teaching changes as it evolves No.2. What in the world does "our purpose that God created for us" mean?
Abortion's evil, like any killing, would depend on circumstances. I am allowed to kill if I am attacked. If I am raped, I will wash the sperm out. Sperm is neither good nor bad, but it has attacked me. On conscience: why be afraid of one's conscience? I trust mine more than anything on earth. People are afraid of their consciences because they haven't taken charge of their morality.
A writer has never answered the query of contraception being mentioned in the New Testament. Sorry the answer below doesn't do it for me.
I provided a link, which is perfectly adequet for a blog about Joe Biden.
"2,000 years of constant Church teaching and our purpose that God created us for would count as the theological reason."
No. 1: Church teaching changes as it evolves No.2. What in the world does "our purpose that God created for us" mean?
No 1. Things that are objectively evil do not become good over time.
No.2 God created marriage and the marital act for the union of spouses and for procreation. Contraception contradicts that.
Abortion's evil, like any killing, would depend on circumstances.
And there it is. Hallelujah! I would ask any lurkers to take careful note of this, because this is what I highly suspect that those who profess Catholicism like Biden, Guiliani, and Pelosi believe as well. And shows exactly how they've rationalized themselves right out of the bounds of Divine Law and essential underlines what this blog is all about. Church teaching is unambiguous: abortion is objectively evil, not circumstantially evil. Meaning it is never morally acceptable no matter the person's intention or the circumstances.
Oh that the usual suspects would be so frank. As we can see, if abortion is merely dependent on circumstances, then it is morally neutral in and of itself. But if it's morally neutral, then there is really no point in talking about reducing them is there? So we can see this touting of contraception is one big rabbit trail and the doctrine of "Personally Opposed" is a meaningless platitude and no more relevant than being personally opposed to Lance Berkman being traded from the Astros.
Then there is some stuff touting the erroneous view of conscience again, but I think the main point has been made--it's the dictatorship of relativism in all its glory.
Th last writer says that killing is neutral (which would mean depending on circumstances). However, killing a fertilized egg is never neutral. That is the one exception. Humm! Not sound logic to me. Leaving the blog. Going on vacation.
The last writer says that killing is neutral (which would mean depending on circumstances). However, killing a fertilized egg is never neutral. That is the one exception. Humm! Not sound logic to me. Leaving the blog. Going on vacation.
If anyone is truly confused about what I wrote, drop me a line, but simply, what I wrote is not what this person says I wrote.
OBAMA = BETRAYAL
Obama supporters are foolish to think that he will never betray them.
Obama was a close friend of Pastor Wright for TWENTY YEARS.
Obama threw Wright under the bus for personal ambition.
McCain would not betray his country even after 5 years of torture.
You can put lipstick on a traitor, but he's still a traitor.
I would not characterize Obama as a traitor nor would I characterize him as a super-patriot. But he at least qualfies as a "useful idiot" to the likes of Ayres who is a certificable and self-confessed radical. See the true story of his so-called "Peace Academies"
His associations with Obama hurt.
Joe Biden is a relativist hipocrite. He is nither a Catholic nor a christian. He is a follower of the Antichrist. Joe Biden has caused death and distruction fron his Senate seat already, but the followers of Baal vote for him.
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